: >As soon as you would like to start an actual discussion, let me know. You
: >start by giving up the idea that I am intentionally not making sense, or
am
: >somehow incapable of discourse.
:
: I hold neither idea. I assume that you, like everyone else, are
: quite capable of making sense, if you work at it.
Assume that I am working at it. Assume that in fact I work at it harder than
anyone else in this newsgroup, including the cynics who take the convenient
route in all things.
: But sometimes it
: takes a lot of work, particularly when meaningless jargon begins to
: think our thoughts for us.
:
: -Tom
Calling my line of reasoning "meaningless jargon" does not start our
discussion. When you are ready to drop that attitude, let me know. If my
understanding was immediately available, just go down to the corner store and
buy some, then why am I awash in ancient Chinese texts, obscure characters,
difficult to perceive patterns, strange intimations of knowledge, odd
practicality, and alternative views? OK, my thought and my writing of that
thought isn’t available at the Stop ‘n’ Go. Big surprise. If you want to
discuss the issues I am pointing to, however ineptly, then you have to
approach my effort to communicate with some respect. I am simply not going to
embark on discourse with cynics or antagonists who could care less.
I am not a "bullshitter," thank you very much. I am a successful healer, not
monetarily, but in the sense that I have healed many people with simple
means. I don’t demand some kind of naive adulation or big grants of money
from you or my clients–but name one reason why I should sit for abuse? Does
the fact that you eventually understand what I’m saying reimburse me somehow?
No, it doesn’t. Only your competent, respecting, honorable attempts at
discourse are worth beans to me. Meanwhile, while I circulate here looking
for interesting discussion, I answer questions from the peanut gallery–in
part because I recognize that the alternative healing field is full of
mythology, misconception, and dead ends. And for no good reason: reliable
traditions exist that _are_ alterative but still reasonable and effective.
P_Iann…@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).
In <337248255.4378…@lamg.com> P_Iann…@lamg.com (Paul Iannone)
writes:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>: >As soon as you would like to start an actual discussion, let me
know. You
>: >start by giving up the idea that I am intentionally not making
sense, or
>am
>: >somehow incapable of discourse.
>:
>: I hold neither idea. I assume that you, like everyone else, are
>: quite capable of making sense, if you work at it.
>Assume that I am working at it. Assume that in fact I work at it harder
than
>anyone else in this newsgroup, including the cynics who take the
convenient
>route in all things.
>: But sometimes it
>: takes a lot of work, particularly when meaningless jargon begins to
>: think our thoughts for us.
>:
>: -Tom
>Calling my line of reasoning "meaningless jargon" does not start our
>discussion. When you are ready to drop that attitude, let me know. If
my
>understanding was immediately available, just go down to the corner
store and
>buy some, then why am I awash in ancient Chinese texts, obscure
characters,
>difficult to perceive patterns, strange intimations of knowledge, odd
>practicality, and alternative views? OK, my thought and my writing of
that
>thought isn’t available at the Stop ‘n’ Go. Big surprise. If you want
to
>discuss the issues I am pointing to, however ineptly, then you have to
>approach my effort to communicate with some respect. I am simply not
going to
>embark on discourse with cynics or antagonists who could care less.
>I am not a "bullshitter," thank you very much. I am a successful
healer, not
>monetarily, but in the sense that I have healed many people with simple
>means. I don’t demand some kind of naive adulation or big grants of
money
>from you or my clients–but name one reason why I should sit for abuse?
Does
>the fact that you eventually understand what I’m saying reimburse me
somehow?
>No, it doesn’t. Only your competent, respecting, honorable attempts at
>discourse are worth beans to me. Meanwhile, while I circulate here
looking
>for interesting discussion, I answer questions from the peanut
gallery–in
>part because I recognize that the alternative healing field is full of
>mythology, misconception, and dead ends. And for no good reason:
reliable
>traditions exist that _are_ alterative but still reasonable and
effective.
>P_Iann…@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).
Why is everyone so angry in this newsgroup? I understand difference of
opinion but It is turning into one of those talk shows where nobody
wins…why doesn’t everybody just offer their two cents worth and call
it a day. If you don’t believe in Natural Medicine & healing then get
the hell off the "Alternative Health" newsgroup…period. Go to a chat
group and raise "hell" if you will, or create a newsgroup to dispute the
realities of homeopathic medicine, herbal medicine, ancient medicine and
the like. I truly believe most users of this newsgroup are looking for
answers for natural herbal medicine and likewise, not somebody
inflicting their views that it does or doesn’t work for them…Let them
try it out for themselves, Geez they are not stupid, it either works for
them or it doesn’t. Isn’t that their God given right to try things and
make decisions for themselves…THAT IS WHAT HOMEOPATHIC MEDICINE IS ALL
ABOUT! It may work for some but not for others, but it is up to the
individual to know that for themselves…live and let live ok?
>Isn’t that their God given right to try things and make
>decisions for themselves…THAT IS WHAT HOMEOPATHIC MEDICINE
>IS ALL ABOUT!
Yep. You can’t yell this insight ‘loudly’ enough. Homeopathy
certainly has more to do with medical-politics and medical-religion
than it does medical-medicine.
——————————————————————-
-"Homeopathy…it’s so much more than water." -JB.
In article <3gsl46$…@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
Dank…@ix.netcom.com "Dan Schreiber" writes:
> Why is everyone so angry in this newsgroup? I understand difference of
> opinion but It is turning into one of those talk shows where nobody
> wins…why doesn’t everybody just offer their two cents worth and call
> it a day.
Oh well, so much for the NEW YEAR RESOLUTION proposal:-(
After some 3 years of monitoring this BBS I think I’ll give it a rest..
there’s to my mind a *total* lack of tolerance and understanding here.
‘Politics’ should be kept to BBSs’ that deal with such matters, medicine
and healing has *nothing* to do with ‘politically’ self prefered views,
*especially* when they are _forced_ upon others.
Till another time when I hope to find more harmony here, look
after yourselves.
mr t.a.t.
—
Resinfo in the U.K.
In article <791888266…@resinfo.demon.co.uk>, Resi…@resinfo.demon.co.uk (Resinfo) writes:
|> In article <3gsl46$…@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
|> Dank…@ix.netcom.com "Dan Schreiber" writes:
|>
|> >
|> > Why is everyone so angry in this newsgroup? I understand difference of
|> > opinion but It is turning into one of those talk shows where nobody
|> > wins…why doesn’t everybody just offer their two cents worth and call
|> > it a day.
There *is* a good reason… Alot of information given on this newsgroup
can be health endangering! Many of the ‘professionals’ posting here are
clearly guilty of questionable practices, such as misrepresenting themselves,
the effectiveness of the modality proposed, accurately presenting the
*scientific* (that’s a dirty word around here) research into the modality, etc.
When someone behaves in a manner that could endanger the health and wellbeing
of the public at large, the person *deserves* to be confronted.
|>
|> Oh well, so much for the NEW YEAR RESOLUTION proposal:-(
That New Year’s resolution was *quite* bogus.
|>
|> After some 3 years of monitoring this BBS I think I’ll give it a rest..
|> there’s to my mind a *total* lack of tolerance and understanding here.
Nope, there’s a total lack of respect for science here. If people would
represent themselves properly, produce literature if they’re promoting
a particular healing modality, or state that as far as the person knows,
there is no scientific evidence supportive of the modality, then alot of
the confrontations would stop.
|> ‘Politics’ should be kept to BBSs’ that deal with such matters, medicine
|> and healing has *nothing* to do with ‘politically’ self prefered views,
|> *especially* when they are _forced_ upon others.
You’re wrong about that. When someone is misrepresenting him/herself,
the effectives (or lack there of) of a modality, the safety (or lack thereof)
of a particular modality, the person deserves to be confronted. This is
not based on any sort of pollitical agenda, but it’s based on pure pragmatism.
There’s alot of lurkers out there who are looking for help and who got
pissed off (for one reason or another) at mainstream medicine, or who are
interested in alternatives. Alot of these people really lack the scientific
or medical background of some of the ‘regulars’. They need to hear a diverse
point of view, and to sometimes witness true believers totally discredited.
You see, it’s caveat emptor out there, and most people don’t have the
wherewithall to avoid the con men, the quacks and the true believing cranks.
For in amongst this morass of dung, there *may* be something of value.
DragonSlayer
|>
|> Till another time when I hope to find more harmony here, look
|> after yourselves.
|>
|> mr t.a.t.
|> —
|> Resinfo in the U.K.
In an earlier post, I wrote concerning Paul Iannone:
>: I assume that you, like everyone else, are
>: quite capable of making sense, if you work at it.
To which Paul replied:
>Assume that I am working at it. Assume that in fact I work at it harder than
>anyone else in this newsgroup, including the cynics who take the convenient
>route in all things.
I fear that here you ask too much of me, Paul. First, you make so many
posts that you could not possibly work particularly hard on any one of
them, and second, your replies to my posts have almost always been
rambling and beside the point of any claim I have made (check out, for
example, your own prose below).
Consider also the issue of "meaningless jargon." I have specifically
identified the offending terms and have already asked you to explain your
use of them. You haven’t done so. And your further ramblings, quoted
below, shed no further light on your use of the terms in question. It
occurs to me, therefore, that what is needed here is not further
reasoning, but an *alternative* reply. I should warn you, however, that
I have a wacky and zany sense of humor. In any event, you wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>Calling my line of reasoning "meaningless jargon" does not start our
>discussion. When you are ready to drop that attitude, let me know. If my
>understanding was immediately available, just go down to the corner store and
>buy some, then why am I awash in ancient Chinese texts, obscure characters,
>difficult to perceive patterns, strange intimations of knowledge, odd
>practicality, and alternative views? OK, my thought and my writing of that
>thought isn’t available at the Stop ‘n’ Go. Big surprise. If you want to
>discuss the issues I am pointing to, however ineptly, then you have to
>approach my effort to communicate with some respect. I am simply not going to
>embark on discourse with cynics or antagonists who could care less.
>I am not a "bullshitter," thank you very much. I am a successful healer, not
>monetarily, but in the sense that I have healed many people with simple
>means. I don’t demand some kind of naive adulation or big grants of money
>from you or my clients–but name one reason why I should sit for abuse? Does
>the fact that you eventually understand what I’m saying reimburse me somehow?
>No, it doesn’t. Only your competent, respecting, honorable attempts at
>discourse are worth beans to me. Meanwhile, while I circulate here looking
>for interesting discussion, I answer questions from the peanut gallery–in
>part because I recognize that the alternative healing field is full of
>mythology, misconception, and dead ends. And for no good reason: reliable
>traditions exist that _are_ alterative but still reasonable and effective.
My *alternative* reply:
/ _ \
/ / \ \
| \_/ |
| |
| - |
___ | - | ___
/ \| |/ \
__| | | |
/ | | | |
| | | | | ___
| | | | | / _\
: : / / /
:() ( ) ( ) ( ) :/ \/
: \/
: \/
: /
\ /
\ /
\ |
| |
| |
If you’re ever in Salem, Oregon, Paul, look me up, and we’ll go out for a
beer together. As I’ve said before, I love a good bullshitter,
particularly over a good dark beer, preferably the darkest beer I can find.
-Tom
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
In <3h0pcj$…@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> DragonSlayer writes:
>In article <791888266…@resinfo.demon.co.uk>,
Resi…@resinfo.demon.co.uk (Resinfo) writes:
>|> In article <3gsl46$…@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
>|> Dank…@ix.netcom.com "Dan Schreiber" writes:
>|>
>|> >
>|> > Why is everyone so angry in this newsgroup? I understand
difference of
>|> > opinion but It is turning into one of those talk shows where
nobody
>|> > wins…why doesn’t everybody just offer their two cents worth and
call
>|> > it a day.
>There *is* a good reason… Alot of information given on this newsgroup
>can be health endangering! Many of the ‘professionals’ posting here are
>clearly guilty of questionable practices, such as misrepresenting
themselves,
>the effectiveness of the modality proposed, accurately presenting the
>*scientific* (that’s a dirty word around here) research into the
modality, etc.
>When someone behaves in a manner that could endanger the health and
wellbeing
>of the public at large, the person *deserves* to be confronted.
>|>
>|> Oh well, so much for the NEW YEAR RESOLUTION proposal:-(
>That New Year’s resolution was *quite* bogus.
>|>
>|> After some 3 years of monitoring this BBS I think I’ll give it a
rest..
>|> there’s to my mind a *total* lack of tolerance and understanding
here.
>Nope, there’s a total lack of respect for science here. If people would
>represent themselves properly, produce literature if they’re promoting
>a particular healing modality, or state that as far as the person
knows,
>there is no scientific evidence supportive of the modality, then alot
of
>the confrontations would stop.
>|> ‘Politics’ should be kept to BBSs’ that deal with such matters,
medicine
>|> and healing has *nothing* to do with ‘politically’ self prefered
views,
>|> *especially* when they are _forced_ upon others.
>You’re wrong about that. When someone is misrepresenting him/herself,
>the effectives (or lack there of) of a modality, the safety (or lack
thereof)
>of a particular modality, the person deserves to be confronted. This is
>not based on any sort of pollitical agenda, but it’s based on pure
pragmatism.
>There’s alot of lurkers out there who are looking for help and who got
>pissed off (for one reason or another) at mainstream medicine, or who
are
>interested in alternatives. Alot of these people really lack the
scientific
>or medical background of some of the ‘regulars’. They need to hear a
diverse
>point of view, and to sometimes witness true believers totally
discredited.
>You see, it’s caveat emptor out there, and most people don’t have the
>wherewithall to avoid the con men, the quacks and the true believing
cranks.
>For in amongst this morass of dung, there *may* be something of value.
>DragonSlayer
>|>
>|> Till another time when I hope to find more harmony here, look
>|> after yourselves.
>|>
>|> mr t.a.t.
>|> —
>|> Resinfo in the U.K.
Dear Dragon Slayer, I’m really not trying to sound nasty but what
exactly do you do as a profession? I’m just curious as you seem to
really hate all natural methods of healing. I understand you want
documention to back all the claims…that’s acceptable, but why have you
taken all of this on *your* shoulders to make sure it’s all proven? The
power of the human mind is an extraordinary, powerful, unexplainable
tool in healing, again, if it works for them, let them try. Please
explain to me again why you are so angry, was it something from your
childhood?
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
In <3h0pcj$…@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> DragonSlayer writes:
>In article <791888266…@resinfo.demon.co.uk>,
Resi…@resinfo.demon.co.uk (Resinfo) writes:
>|> In article <3gsl46$…@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
>|> Dank…@ix.netcom.com "Dan Schreiber" writes:
>|>
>|> >
>|> > Why is everyone so angry in this newsgroup? I understand
difference of
>|> > opinion but It is turning into one of those talk shows where
nobody
>|> > wins…why doesn’t everybody just offer their two cents worth and
call
>|> > it a day.
>There *is* a good reason… Alot of information given on this newsgroup
>can be health endangering! Many of the ‘professionals’ posting here are
>clearly guilty of questionable practices, such as misrepresenting
themselves,
>the effectiveness of the modality proposed, accurately presenting the
>*scientific* (that’s a dirty word around here) research into the
modality, etc.
>When someone behaves in a manner that could endanger the health and
wellbeing
>of the public at large, the person *deserves* to be confronted.
>|>
>|> Oh well, so much for the NEW YEAR RESOLUTION proposal:-(
>That New Year’s resolution was *quite* bogus.
>|>
>|> After some 3 years of monitoring this BBS I think I’ll give it a
rest..
>|> there’s to my mind a *total* lack of tolerance and understanding
here.
>Nope, there’s a total lack of respect for science here. If people would
>represent themselves properly, produce literature if they’re promoting
>a particular healing modality, or state that as far as the person
knows,
>there is no scientific evidence supportive of the modality, then alot
of
>the confrontations would stop.
>|> ‘Politics’ should be kept to BBSs’ that deal with such matters,
medicine
>|> and healing has *nothing* to do with ‘politically’ self prefered
views,
>|> *especially* when they are _forced_ upon others.
>You’re wrong about that. When someone is misrepresenting him/herself,
>the effectives (or lack there of) of a modality, the safety (or lack
thereof)
>of a particular modality, the person deserves to be confronted. This is
>not based on any sort of pollitical agenda, but it’s based on pure
pragmatism.
>There’s alot of lurkers out there who are looking for help and who got
>pissed off (for one reason or another) at mainstream medicine, or who
are
>interested in alternatives. Alot of these people really lack the
scientific
>or medical background of some of the ‘regulars’. They need to hear a
diverse
>point of view, and to sometimes witness true believers totally
discredited.
>You see, it’s caveat emptor out there, and most people don’t have the
>wherewithall to avoid the con men, the quacks and the true believing
cranks.
>For in amongst this morass of dung, there *may* be something of value.
>DragonSlayer
>|>
>|> Till another time when I hope to find more harmony here, look
>|> after yourselves.
>|>
>|> mr t.a.t.
>|> —
>|> Resinfo in the U.K.
DragonSlayer: Why do you lack the balls to use your real name? Rather
than hide behind a cloak of annonymity, don’t you think it would be more
honest if you used your real name? Hell, I give my real name, provide my
real address, fax and phone numbers on here so that people can contact
me directly and discuss anything I put up here face to face if they want
to.I don’t even give a fuck if the Feds tap my phone. Hell, ya’ll
probably are already! The South gonna rise again, brother!
You assert that there isn’t much respect for science in this newsgroup
and that your reason for being here is to "confront and discredit the
true believers and to set them straight so that the many lurkers here
won’t be mislead and given bad medical advice."
This is truly noble of you, sir, and its obvious to me that you
sincerely believe that what you are doing is helping people and even
though I am totally at odds with your way of thinking, I do respect your
sincerity. In a previous message you urged someone to get an anti
homeopathy publication from the National Council Against Health Fraud.
You certainly sound like a card carrying member of the NCAHF, and I
would appreciate it if you would identify yourself, because if you
don’t, I intend to use finger to find out who you are and to expose your
real name.
Its important for all of you lurkers and regulars to know that all the
members of the Board of NCAHF are also on the board of the ACSF- (The
so called "American Council on Science and Health" a for profit entity
which is funded in entirety by certain pharmaceutical companies which
have a vested interest in attacking alternative medicine, and defending
the status quo. NCAHF is merely a front organization of theirs which is
carrying out the work of the disbanded CCHI, ("Central Clearinghouse on
Health Information") that secret organization within the AMA that was
run by H.Doyle Taylor in an effort to attack the AMA’s competition-
especially the chiropractors, who later won an antitrust suit against
the AMA.
Anyone desiring information on the whole sad scenario surrounding the
NCAHF/ACSF/ and related organizations which attack and seek to suppress
alternative medicine should get a copy of PJ Lisa’s recent book Assault
on Medical Freedom (Hampton Roads Publishers), or Racketeering in
Medicine by James Carter, MD (Hampton Roads Publishers Norfolk VA
804-459-2453 for free review copy talk with Russell Robertson) Also,
another book which exposes the evil motives of the drug cartel is Dirty
Medicine by Martin J. Walker (Slingshot Publications, London England
1993). After you read those books, for the sake of objectivity, read
Barrett’s "The Vitamin Pusher’s".
Judge for yourself who is correct, "DragonSlayer" (a person who lacks
the balls to put his real name in cyberspace, and who I am about to
expose), or me. If you happen to be in the Ft.Lauderdale, Florida area,
be sure to drop by and see our FDA Holocaust Museum to learn of the many
ways in which the FDA is killing Americans. The FDA makes the mafia look
as well behaved as a sunday school picnic. They, and their defenders are
mired in the old, obsolete, Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm which has been
superceded by the holistic paradigm in which everything is systems
based. Reductionism is a thing of the past. As physics changes, all of
science and medicine changes. Read "The Turning Point" by physicist
Fritjof Capra. DragonSlayer has no science behind him. His whole
paradigm has just been flushed down the toilet. Time marches on.
John Hammell, Political Coordinator, The Life Extension Foundation
Political Office 1534 Polk St. Hollywood, FL 33020, 800-333-2553,
FAX 305-929-0507 JHamm…@ix.netcom.com, 75240….@compuserve.com,
http://aeiveos.wa.com/lef/index.html (Web page just starting)
In <3h1ra3$…@gemini.willamette.edu> ttalb…@willamette.edu (Tom
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Talbott) writes:
>In an earlier post, I wrote concerning Paul Iannone:
>>: I assume that you, like everyone else, are
>>: quite capable of making sense, if you work at it.
>To which Paul replied:
>>Assume that I am working at it. Assume that in fact I work at it
harder than
>>anyone else in this newsgroup, including the cynics who take the
convenient
>>route in all things.
>I fear that here you ask too much of me, Paul. First, you make so many
>posts that you could not possibly work particularly hard on any one of
>them, and second, your replies to my posts have almost always been
>rambling and beside the point of any claim I have made (check out, for
>example, your own prose below).
>Consider also the issue of "meaningless jargon." I have specifically
>identified the offending terms and have already asked you to explain
your
>use of them. You haven’t done so. And your further ramblings, quoted
>below, shed no further light on your use of the terms in question. It
>occurs to me, therefore, that what is needed here is not further
>reasoning, but an *alternative* reply. I should warn you, however,
that
>I have a wacky and zany sense of humor. In any event, you wrote:
>>Calling my line of reasoning "meaningless jargon" does not start our
>>discussion. When you are ready to drop that attitude, let me know. If
my
>>understanding was immediately available, just go down to the corner
store and
>>buy some, then why am I awash in ancient Chinese texts, obscure
characters,
>>difficult to perceive patterns, strange intimations of knowledge, odd
>>practicality, and alternative views? OK, my thought and my writing of
that
>>thought isn’t available at the Stop ‘n’ Go. Big surprise. If you want
to
>>discuss the issues I am pointing to, however ineptly, then you have to
>>approach my effort to communicate with some respect. I am simply not
going to
>>embark on discourse with cynics or antagonists who could care less.
>>I am not a "bullshitter," thank you very much. I am a successful
healer, not
>>monetarily, but in the sense that I have healed many people with
simple
>>means. I don’t demand some kind of naive adulation or big grants of
money
>>from you or my clients–but name one reason why I should sit for
abuse? Does
>>the fact that you eventually understand what I’m saying reimburse me
somehow?
>>No, it doesn’t. Only your competent, respecting, honorable attempts at
>>discourse are worth beans to me. Meanwhile, while I circulate here
looking
>>for interesting discussion, I answer questions from the peanut
gallery–in
>>part because I recognize that the alternative healing field is full of
>>mythology, misconception, and dead ends. And for no good reason:
reliable
>>traditions exist that _are_ alterative but still reasonable and
effective.
>My *alternative* reply:
) ( ) ( ) ( ) :/ \/
> / _ \
> / / \ \
> | \_/ |
> | |
> | - |
> ___ | - | ___
> / \| |/ \
> __| | | |
> / | | | |
> | | | | | ___
> | | | | | / _\
> : : / / /
>
> : \/
> : \/
> : /
> \ /
> \ /
> \ |
> | |
> | |
>If you’re ever in Salem, Oregon, Paul, look me up, and we’ll go out for
a
>beer together. As I’ve said before, I love a good bullshitter,
>particularly over a good dark beer, preferably the darkest beer I can
find.
>-Tom
Tom- Although humerous and unexpected, your reply to Paul was a real cop
out. The real problem here is that you are a staunch adherent of the now
obsolete Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm which has been superceded by the
holistic paradigm in which reductionism has been properly flushed down
the toilet in favor of a systems based view of the universe. I realize
you will never accept this and will demand proof and all sorts of crap
like that, but I have better things to do with my time than to entertain
the trogladytes up here who remain hopelessly mired in Descartes tired
old mechanistic universe.
John Hammell
Political Coordinator
The Life Extension Foundation
800-333-2553, 305-929-0507 FAX, JHamm…@ix.netcom.com,
75240….@compuserve.com, http://aeiveos.wa.com/lef/index.html
In <3h1uec$…@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Dank…@ix.netcom.com (Dan
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Schreiber) writes:
>In <3h0pcj$…@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> DragonSlayer writes:
>>In article <791888266…@resinfo.demon.co.uk>,
>Resi…@resinfo.demon.co.uk (Resinfo) writes:
>>|> In article <3gsl46$…@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
>>|> Dank…@ix.netcom.com "Dan Schreiber" writes:
>>|>
>>|> >
>>|> > Why is everyone so angry in this newsgroup? I understand
>difference of
>>|> > opinion but It is turning into one of those talk shows where
>nobody
>>|> > wins…why doesn’t everybody just offer their two cents worth and
>call
>>|> > it a day.
>>There *is* a good reason… Alot of information given on this
newsgroup
>>can be health endangering! Many of the ‘professionals’ posting here
are
>>clearly guilty of questionable practices, such as misrepresenting
>themselves,
>>the effectiveness of the modality proposed, accurately presenting the
>>*scientific* (that’s a dirty word around here) research into the
>modality, etc.
>>When someone behaves in a manner that could endanger the health and
>wellbeing
>>of the public at large, the person *deserves* to be confronted.
>>|>
>>|> Oh well, so much for the NEW YEAR RESOLUTION proposal:-(
>>That New Year’s resolution was *quite* bogus.
>>|>
>>|> After some 3 years of monitoring this BBS I think I’ll give it a
>rest..
>>|> there’s to my mind a *total* lack of tolerance and understanding
>here.
>>Nope, there’s a total lack of respect for science here. If people
would
>>represent themselves properly, produce literature if they’re promoting
>>a particular healing modality, or state that as far as the person
>knows,
>>there is no scientific evidence supportive of the modality, then alot
>of
>>the confrontations would stop.
>>|> ‘Politics’ should be kept to BBSs’ that deal with such matters,
>medicine
>>|> and healing has *nothing* to do with ‘politically’ self prefered
>views,
>>|> *especially* when they are _forced_ upon others.
>>You’re wrong about that. When someone is misrepresenting him/herself,
>>the effectives (or lack there of) of a modality, the safety (or lack
>thereof)
>>of a particular modality, the person deserves to be confronted. This
is
>>not based on any sort of pollitical agenda, but it’s based on pure
>pragmatism.
>>There’s alot of lurkers out there who are looking for help and who got
>>pissed off (for one reason or another) at mainstream medicine, or who
>are
>>interested in alternatives. Alot of these people really lack the
>scientific
>>or medical background of some of the ‘regulars’. They need to hear a
>diverse
>>point of view, and to sometimes witness true believers totally
>discredited.
>>You see, it’s caveat emptor out there, and most people don’t have the
>>wherewithall to avoid the con men, the quacks and the true believing
>cranks.
>>For in amongst this morass of dung, there *may* be something of value.
>>DragonSlayer
>>|>
>>|> Till another time when I hope to find more harmony here, look
>>|> after yourselves.
>>|>
>>|> mr t.a.t.
>>|> —
>>|> Resinfo in the U.K.
>Dear Dragon Slayer, I’m really not trying to sound nasty but what
>exactly do you do as a profession? I’m just curious as you seem to
>really hate all natural methods of healing. I understand you want
>documention to back all the claims…that’s acceptable, but why have
you
>taken all of this on *your* shoulders to make sure it’s all proven?
The
>power of the human mind is an extraordinary, powerful, unexplainable
>tool in healing, again, if it works for them, let them try. Please
>explain to me again why you are so angry, was it something from your
>childhood?
Dan Schreiber- You wondered why DragonSlayer was so mean and
nasty and speculated that maybe he was possibly dorked up
the wazoo by his dad (or something) in childhood, and I have some
thoughts on the matter that may be of interest.
DragonSlayer lacks the balls to put his real name on here, so I’m gonna
use Finger to find out his real name, and that will shead some light on
the matter. Obviously, he is a member of the NCAHF, and all those guys
are zealots who think they have been annointed directly by God with the
truth. Actually, they are a pack of pathetic individuals who are
watching their flawed paradigm of Cartesian logic be replaced by the new
holistic paradigm, and it bothers them to no end. They feel threatened:
economically and philosophically. You might enjoy reading "Medical
Mavericks" vols 1&2 by Hugh Riordan,MD. of the Center for the
Improvedment of Human Functioning in Wichita, KS 316-682-3100. Each
chapter in these 2 books is a short vignette about how medical
innovators have been harrassed by morons like DragonSlayer throughout
history. They show that demagogues like DragonSlayer have been around
for centuries. There is nothing new under the sun.
John Hammell
Political Coordinator
The Life Extension Foundation
800-333-2553, 305-929-0507 FAX
JHamm…@ix.netcom.com or on the web:
http://aeiveos.wa.com/lef/index.html
75240….@compuserve.com
: >Calling my line of reasoning "meaningless jargon" does not start our
: >discussion. When you are ready to drop that attitude, let me know. If my
: >understanding was immediately available, just go down to the corner
: >store and buy some, then why am I awash in ancient Chinese texts,
: >obscure characters, difficult to perceive patterns, strange
: >intimations of knowledge, odd practicality, and alternative views?
: >OK, my thought and my writing of that thought isn’t available at
: >the Stop ‘n’ Go. Big surprise. If you want to discuss the issues I
: >am pointing to, however ineptly, then you have to approach my
: >effort to communicate with some respect. I am simply not going to
: >embark on discourse with cynics or antagonists who could care less.
:
: My *alternative* reply:
: / _ \
: / / \ \
: | \_/ |
: | |
: | - |
[snip, etc.]
I’ll take that as a ‘no.’ You join many other ‘zany souls’ in my noise
filter.
P_Iann…@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).
In article <3h31ls$…@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
John Hammell <JHamm…@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Tom- Although humerous and unexpected, your reply to Paul was a real cop
>out. The real problem here is that you are a staunch adherent of the now
>obsolete Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm which has been superceded by the
>holistic paradigm in which reductionism has been properly flushed down
>the toilet in favor of a systems based view of the universe. I realize
>you will never accept this and will demand proof and all sorts of crap
>like that, but I have better things to do with my time than to entertain
>the trogladytes up here who remain hopelessly mired in Descartes [sic]
>tired old mechanistic universe.
From beginning to end this is sheer unadulterated bullshit. I’ll offer
you here and now $100.00 if you can do two things: first, give a clear
explanation of the "Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm," as you call it, and
second, cite a single sentence in one of my posts that commits me to such
a paradigm. And how does the mere fact that I dislike meaningless
jargon, such as "Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm," commit me either to
reductionism of some kind or to a mechanistic view of the universe?
The irony is that I first entered this newsgroup because I am very much
interested in alternative medicine. But unfortunately, people like you
and Paul, who throw around philosophical terms that you clearly do not
understand, end up doing the cause of alternative medicine more harm than
good.
And why, by the way, do you regard my *alternative* reply to Paul, which
admittedly indulges my own zany sense of humor, as a cop-out? If, in
your own words, you have no regard for "proof and crap like that," then
why not regard my alternative reply as perfectly appropriate? It is
hardly an attempt to produce "proof and crap like that"; so in that
respect, at least, it seems to be right in line with what you are looking
for.
-Tom
In <3h3v3c$…@gemini.willamette.edu> ttalb…@willamette.edu (Tom
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Talbott) writes:
>In article <3h31ls$…@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>John Hammell <JHamm…@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>Tom- Although humerous and unexpected, your reply to Paul was a real
cop
>>out. The real problem here is that you are a staunch adherent of the
now
>>obsolete Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm which has been superceded by the
>>holistic paradigm in which reductionism has been properly flushed down
>>the toilet in favor of a systems based view of the universe. I realize
>>you will never accept this and will demand proof and all sorts of crap
>>like that, but I have better things to do with my time than to
entertain
>>the trogladytes up here who remain hopelessly mired in Descartes [sic]
>>tired old mechanistic universe.
>From beginning to end this is sheer unadulterated bullshit. I’ll offer
>you here and now $100.00 if you can do two things: first, give a clear
>explanation of the "Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm," as you call it, and
>second, cite a single sentence in one of my posts that commits me to
such
>a paradigm. And how does the mere fact that I dislike meaningless
>jargon, such as "Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm," commit me either to
>reductionism of some kind or to a mechanistic view of the universe?
>The irony is that I first entered this newsgroup because I am very much
>interested in alternative medicine. But unfortunately, people like you
>and Paul, who throw around philosophical terms that you clearly do not
>understand, end up doing the cause of alternative medicine more harm
than
>good.
>And why, by the way, do you regard my *alternative* reply to Paul,
which
>admittedly indulges my own zany sense of humor, as a cop-out? If, in
>your own words, you have no regard for "proof and crap like that," then
>why not regard my alternative reply as perfectly appropriate? It is
>hardly an attempt to produce "proof and crap like that"; so in that
>respect, at least, it seems to be right in line with what you are
looking
>for.
>-Tom
Go back and read the post on Descartes.
In article <3h5g36$…@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
Judith A. Linn <l…@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Go back and read the post on Descartes.
I read it. What about it?
-Tom
In article <337248255.6975…@lamg.com>,
Paul Iannone <P_Iann…@lamg.com> wrote:
>You join many other ‘zany souls’ in my noise filter.
Thank God. When I first made my modest suggestion that the critics of
alternative medicine serve an important function in this newsgroup, I
knew that I would end up arguing with you; I knew this because you feel
compelled to comment on virtually everyone who is not in your "noise
filter." Perhaps now I can occasionally carry on a discussion with
someone other than you. So by all means, keep me in your "noise
filter"!
-Tom
DragonSlayer wrote:
> There *is* a good reason… Alot of information given on this newsgroup
> can be health endangering! Many of the ‘professionals’ posting here are
> clearly guilty of questionable practices, such as misrepresenting themselves,
> the effectiveness of the modality proposed, accurately presenting the
> *scientific* (that’s a dirty word around here) research into the modality, etc.
> When someone behaves in a manner that could endanger the health and wellbeing
> of the public at large, the person *deserves* to be confronted.
In case you havn’t noticed dragonslobber, science hasn’t quite solved
man’s health problems. Therefore why should we use this model for
alternatives? We are not all pros. Most of us are here to share, and
learn from other people from whatever perspectives. Any idiot knows
not to blindly follow a laymans advice as well as a professionals.
Cease to insult us or deal with the eternal flame
In article <3h1uec$…@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, Dank…@ix.netcom.com (Dan Schreiber) writes:
|> In <3h0pcj$…@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> DragonSlayer writes:
|>
|> >
|> >In article <791888266…@resinfo.demon.co.uk>,
|> Resi…@resinfo.demon.co.uk (Resinfo) writes:
|> >|> In article <3gsl46$…@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
|> >|> Dank…@ix.netcom.com "Dan Schreiber" writes:
|> >|>
|> >|> >
|> >|> > Why is everyone so angry in this newsgroup? I understand
|> difference of
|> >|> > opinion but It is turning into one of those talk shows where
|> nobody
|> >|> > wins…why doesn’t everybody just offer their two cents worth and
|> call
|> >|> > it a day.
|> >
|> >There *is* a good reason… Alot of information given on this newsgroup
|> >can be health endangering! Many of the ‘professionals’ posting here are
|> >clearly guilty of questionable practices, such as misrepresenting
|> themselves,
|> >the effectiveness of the modality proposed, accurately presenting the
|> >*scientific* (that’s a dirty word around here) research into the
|> modality, etc.
|> >When someone behaves in a manner that could endanger the health and
|> wellbeing
|> >of the public at large, the person *deserves* to be confronted.
|> >|>
|> >|> Oh well, so much for the NEW YEAR RESOLUTION proposal:-(
|> >
|> >That New Year’s resolution was *quite* bogus.
|> >|>
|> >|> After some 3 years of monitoring this BBS I think I’ll give it a
|> rest..
|> >|> there’s to my mind a *total* lack of tolerance and understanding
|> here.
|> >
|> >Nope, there’s a total lack of respect for science here. If people would
|> >represent themselves properly, produce literature if they’re promoting
|> >a particular healing modality, or state that as far as the person
|> knows,
|> >there is no scientific evidence supportive of the modality, then alot
|> of
|> >the confrontations would stop.
|> >
|> >|> ‘Politics’ should be kept to BBSs’ that deal with such matters,
|> medicine
|> >|> and healing has *nothing* to do with ‘politically’ self prefered
|> views,
|> >|> *especially* when they are _forced_ upon others.
|> >
|> >You’re wrong about that. When someone is misrepresenting him/herself,
|> >the effectives (or lack there of) of a modality, the safety (or lack
|> thereof)
|> >of a particular modality, the person deserves to be confronted. This is
|> >not based on any sort of pollitical agenda, but it’s based on pure
|> pragmatism.
|> >There’s alot of lurkers out there who are looking for help and who got
|> >pissed off (for one reason or another) at mainstream medicine, or who
|> are
|> >interested in alternatives. Alot of these people really lack the
|> scientific
|> >or medical background of some of the ‘regulars’. They need to hear a
|> diverse
|> >point of view, and to sometimes witness true believers totally
|> discredited.
|> >You see, it’s caveat emptor out there, and most people don’t have the
|> >wherewithall to avoid the con men, the quacks and the true believing
|> cranks.
|> >For in amongst this morass of dung, there *may* be something of value.
|> >
|> >DragonSlayer
|> >|>
|> >|> Till another time when I hope to find more harmony here, look
|> >|> after yourselves.
|> >|>
|> >|> mr t.a.t.
|> >|> —
|> >|> Resinfo in the U.K.
|> >
|>
|> Dear Dragon Slayer, I’m really not trying to sound nasty but what
|> exactly do you do as a profession? I’m just curious as you seem to
|> really hate all natural methods of healing. I understand you want
|> documention to back all the claims…that’s acceptable, but why have you
|> taken all of this on *your* shoulders to make sure it’s all proven? The
|> power of the human mind is an extraordinary, powerful, unexplainable
|> tool in healing, again, if it works for them, let them try. Please
|> explain to me again why you are so angry, was it something from your
|> childhood?
It’s not something from my childhood. I *really* dislike people, like yourself,
who try to read in psychological stuff into others posts. I’m a rational
engineer. I have a distaste for people who behave irrationally or who
make irrational claims. I have a distaste for people who promote claims who
can’t back the claims up. Ethically, they are *required* to state that
this is their own opinion, lacking in credable scientific evidence.
I think these sort of characters give a bad name to ‘alternative’ medicine.
There’s plenty of modalities that are considered ‘alternative’ for
purely pollitical reasons (i.e, the PTs don’t like the massage therapists,
the Rolfers, etc), which *do* posess good, scientific research to back
it up. I want to see the ‘good guys’: the ones who play by the rules, who
are black sheep not because of their own doing, get promoted and the
questionable folks weeded out.
If you continue asking people about their childhood when it’s not
appropriate for the discussion, then I must question whether you
this interest is caused by the fact that *you* have unresolved problems
from *your* childhood?
DragonSlayer
Paul Ianonne:
>Believe it or not, I am seeking discourse. You are clearly
>seeking discord. Why aren’t I surprised?
You aren’t "surprised" because you are not, as you claim, *truly*
"seeking discourse." Now, is that so complicated?
—————————————————————
-"The cheeper the crook…the gaudier the patter." -SS
Paul Ianonne:
>Believe it or not, I am seeking discourse. You are clearly
>seeking discord. Why aren’t I surprised?
You aren’t "surprised" because you are not, as you claim, *truly*
"seeking discourse." Now, is that so complicated?
—————————————————————
-"The cheaper the crook…the gaudier the patter." -SS
In article <440528894.4378…@lamg.com>, P_Iann…@lamg.com (Paul Iannone) writes:
|>
|> Again, cynicism appears to be your driving bias. All acts are motivated by
|> greed. Dragon Slayer (000) joins you in that point-of-view. Unfortunately, I
|> am not an entrepreneur–I do not reference products, and I offer free
|> treatment strategies whenever possible. I am also a poor man, and a scholar,
|> so I don’t fit your worldview. I am striving to understand something very
|> abstruse–you are applying tongs to that baby’s head.
|>
|> Believe it or not, I am seeking discourse. You are clearly seeking discord.
|> Why aren’t I surprised?
|>
|> P_Iann…@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).
Hey, if I’m in your killfile, why do you keep answering my posts?
You know nothing about me, but you presume you do. You also presume
to speak for the other people on this newsgroup. I get sick of that,
and you are the only one that can cure my illness. Why are you so
theatened by anyone that questions some of the things you post? My
great-grandfather was a ‘root doctor’ in southern Indiana, and
had a greater following than the local conventional doctor…I believe
in the ability of herbs to help cure some ailments. But there is
nothing magic about that, the herbs contain chemical compounds,
i.e. >drugs<, so I don’t see any great difference between herb
based therapy and so-called westeren medicine. I also believe
that the mind has incredible powers to heal the body, and I
saw >just that< happen many times in the five years I worked at
a hospital (to put myself through school…you don’t have any
monopoly on being poor, bubba.). I am not a cynic, but I
am cynical about anyone that requires me to believe what they
believe on faith alone.
If you truly seek discourse, why do you so frequently resort to
hostility and cynical statements? I had never heard about
ETH until I began reading this newgroup, but if using ETH leads
to people as negative as you seem to be, I would never give
it a try. Some ‘healer’. I might believe you have no
commercial interest in this newgroup if you did not always
include your address in your signature file. Makes it easy
for people to find you, in case they want a ETH’er, eh?
A true ‘scholar’ would be more open minded than you seem to be.
However, >you< are cynical…you believe that anyone that
disagrees with you, or even questions anything you say, must
be motivated by greed and some apparent need to protect
‘conventional’ medicine. How very strange. As if I had the
time. If your pat advice was not so frequently ‘seek an ETHer’
followed by your address, then maybe I would not be so
suspicious of your motives.
As I have said before, I enjoy your posts that freely give
information on herbal techniques. I admire you for the
amount of time it takes to acquire such a knowledge base.
Why can’t give give people of other diciplines the respect
you seem to demand for yours?
–
Troy M. Hash GeoMan, Student of All Waves
!!>>>> My Opinions Do Not Reflect Those Of My Employer <<<<!!
"You’ll be absolutely free, Only if you want to be…"F.Zappa
"That which does not kill me, makes me tired" after Nietzsche