|>
|> Again, cynicism appears to be your driving bias. All acts are motivated by
|> greed. Dragon Slayer (000) joins you in that point-of-view. Unfortunately, I
|> am not an entrepreneur–I do not reference products, and I offer free
|> treatment strategies whenever possible. I am also a poor man, and a scholar,
|> so I don’t fit your worldview. I am striving to understand something very
|> abstruse–you are applying tongs to that baby’s head.
|>
|> Believe it or not, I am seeking discourse. You are clearly seeking discord.
|> Why aren’t I surprised?
|>
|> P_Iann…@lamg.com (Paul Iannone, P.O.B. 66843, L.A., CA 90066).

Hey, if I’m in your killfile, why do you keep answering my posts?
You know nothing about me, but you presume you do. You also presume
to speak for the other people on this newsgroup. I get sick of that,
and you are the only one that can cure my illness.  Why are you so
theatened by anyone that questions some of the things you post?  My
great-grandfather was a ‘root doctor’ in southern Indiana, and
had a greater following than the local conventional doctor…I believe
in the ability of herbs to help cure some ailments.  But there is
nothing magic about that, the herbs contain chemical compounds,
i.e. >drugs<, so I don’t see any great difference between herb
based therapy and so-called westeren medicine.  I also believe
that the mind has incredible powers to heal the body, and I
saw >just that< happen many times in the five years I worked at
a hospital (to put myself through school…you don’t have any
monopoly on being poor, bubba.).  I am not a cynic, but I
am cynical about anyone that requires me to believe what they
believe on faith alone.

If you truly seek discourse, why do you so frequently resort to
hostility and cynical statements?  I had never heard about
ETH until I began reading this newgroup, but if using ETH leads
to people as negative as you seem to be, I would never give
it a try.  Some ‘healer’.  I might believe you have no
commercial interest in this newgroup if you did not always
include your address in your signature file.  Makes it easy
for people to find you, in case they want a ETH’er, eh?  

A true ‘scholar’ would be more open minded than you seem to be.
However, >you< are cynical…you believe that anyone that
disagrees with you, or even questions anything you say, must
be motivated by greed and some apparent need to protect
‘conventional’ medicine. How very strange. As if I had the
time.  If your pat advice was not so frequently ‘seek an ETHer’
followed by your address, then maybe I would not be so
suspicious of your motives.  

As I have said before, I enjoy your posts that freely give
information on herbal techniques.  I admire you for the
amount of time it takes to acquire such a knowledge base.
Why can’t give give people of other diciplines the respect
you seem to demand for yours?

–
Troy M. Hash                     GeoMan, Student of All Waves
!!>>>> My Opinions Do Not Reflect Those Of My Employer <<<<!!
"You’ll be absolutely free, Only if you want to be…"F.Zappa
"That which does not kill me, makes me tired" after Nietzsche

You aren’t "surprised" because you are not, as you claim, *truly*
"seeking discourse."   Now, is that so complicated?  
—————————————————————
  -"The cheaper the crook…the gaudier the patter." -SS

You aren’t "surprised" because you are not, as you claim, *truly*
"seeking discourse." Now, is that so complicated?  
—————————————————————
   -"The cheeper the crook…the gaudier the patter." -SS

|> In <3h0pcj$…@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> DragonSlayer writes:
|>
|> >
|> >In article <791888266…@resinfo.demon.co.uk>,
|> Resi…@resinfo.demon.co.uk (Resinfo) writes:

|> >|> In article <3gsl46$…@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
|> >|>            Dank…@ix.netcom.com "Dan Schreiber" writes:
|> >|>
|> >|> >
|> >|> > Why is everyone so angry in this newsgroup?  I understand
|> difference of
|> >|> > opinion but It is turning into one of those talk shows where
|> nobody
|> >|> > wins…why doesn’t everybody just offer their two cents worth and
|> call
|> >|> > it a day.
|> >
|> >There *is* a good reason… Alot of information given on this newsgroup
|> >can be health endangering! Many of the ‘professionals’ posting here are
|> >clearly guilty of questionable practices, such as misrepresenting
|> themselves,
|> >the effectiveness of the modality proposed, accurately presenting the
|> >*scientific* (that’s a dirty word around here) research into the
|> modality, etc.
|> >When someone behaves in a manner that could endanger the health and
|> wellbeing
|> >of the public at large, the person *deserves* to be confronted.
|> >|>
|> >|> Oh well, so much for the NEW YEAR RESOLUTION proposal:-(
|> >
|> >That New Year’s resolution was *quite* bogus.
|> >|>
|> >|> After some 3 years of monitoring this BBS I think I’ll give it a
|> rest..
|> >|> there’s to my mind a *total* lack of tolerance and understanding
|> here.
|> >
|> >Nope, there’s a total lack of respect for science here. If people would
|> >represent themselves properly, produce literature if they’re promoting
|> >a particular healing modality, or state that as far as the person
|> knows,
|> >there is no scientific evidence supportive of the modality, then alot
|> of
|> >the confrontations would stop.
|> >
|> >|> ‘Politics’ should be kept to BBSs’ that deal with such matters,
|> medicine
|> >|> and healing has *nothing* to do with ‘politically’ self prefered
|> views,
|> >|> *especially* when they are _forced_ upon others.
|> >
|> >You’re wrong about that. When someone is misrepresenting him/herself,
|> >the effectives (or lack there of) of a modality, the safety (or lack
|> thereof)
|> >of a particular modality, the person deserves to be confronted. This is
|> >not based on any sort of pollitical agenda, but it’s based on pure
|> pragmatism.
|> >There’s alot of lurkers out there who are looking for help and who got
|> >pissed off (for one reason or another) at mainstream medicine, or who
|> are
|> >interested in alternatives. Alot of these people really lack the
|> scientific
|> >or medical background of some of the ‘regulars’. They need to hear a
|> diverse
|> >point of view, and to sometimes witness true believers totally
|> discredited.
|> >You see, it’s caveat emptor out there, and most people don’t have the
|> >wherewithall to avoid the con men, the quacks and the true believing
|> cranks.
|> >For in amongst this morass of dung, there *may* be something of value.
|> >
|> >DragonSlayer  
|> >|>
|> >|> Till another time when I hope to find more harmony here, look
|> >|> after yourselves.
|> >|>
|> >|> mr t.a.t.
|> >|> —
|> >|> Resinfo in the U.K.
|> >
|>
|> Dear Dragon Slayer, I’m really not trying to sound nasty but what
|> exactly do you do as a profession?  I’m just curious as you seem to
|> really hate all natural methods of healing.  I understand you want
|> documention to back all the claims…that’s acceptable, but why have you
|> taken all of this on *your* shoulders to make sure it’s all proven?  The
|> power of the human mind is an extraordinary, powerful, unexplainable
|> tool in healing, again, if it works for them, let them try.  Please
|> explain to me again why you are so angry, was it something from your
|> childhood?

It’s not something from my childhood. I *really* dislike people, like yourself,
who try to read in psychological stuff into others posts. I’m a rational
engineer. I have a distaste for people who behave irrationally or who
make irrational claims. I have a distaste for people who promote claims who
can’t back the claims up. Ethically, they are *required* to state that
this is their own opinion, lacking in credable scientific evidence.
I think these sort of characters give a bad name to ‘alternative’ medicine.
There’s plenty of modalities that are considered ‘alternative’ for
purely pollitical reasons (i.e, the PTs don’t like the massage therapists,
the Rolfers, etc), which *do* posess good, scientific research to back
it up. I want to see the ‘good guys’: the ones who play by the rules, who
are black sheep not because of their own doing, get promoted and the
questionable folks weeded out.

If you continue asking people about their childhood when it’s not
appropriate for the discussion, then I must question whether you
this interest is caused by the fact that *you* have unresolved problems
from *your* childhood?

DragonSlayer

Paul Iannone <P_Iann…@lamg.com> wrote:
>You join many other ‘zany souls’ in my noise filter.

Thank God.  When I first made my modest suggestion that the critics of
alternative medicine serve an important function in this newsgroup, I
knew that I would end up arguing with you; I knew this because you feel
compelled to comment on virtually everyone who is not in your "noise
filter."  Perhaps now I can occasionally carry on a discussion with
someone other than you.  So by all means, keep me in your "noise
filter"!

-Tom

> There *is* a good reason… Alot of information given on this newsgroup
> can be health endangering! Many of the ‘professionals’ posting here are
> clearly guilty of questionable practices, such as misrepresenting themselves,
> the effectiveness of the modality proposed, accurately presenting the
> *scientific* (that’s a dirty word around here) research into the modality, etc.
> When someone behaves in a manner that could endanger the health and wellbeing
> of the public at large, the person *deserves* to be confronted.

In case you havn’t noticed dragonslobber, science hasn’t quite solved
man’s health problems. Therefore why should we use this model for
alternatives? We are not all pros. Most of us are here to share, and
learn from other people from whatever perspectives. Any idiot knows
not to blindly follow a laymans advice as well as a professionals.
Cease to insult us or deal with the eternal flame

>Go back and read the post on Descartes.

I read it.  What about it?

-Tom

John Hammell <JHamm…@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Tom- Although humerous and unexpected, your reply to Paul was a real cop
>out. The real problem here is that you are a staunch adherent of the now
>obsolete Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm which has been superceded by the
>holistic paradigm in which reductionism has been properly flushed down
>the toilet in favor of a systems based view of the universe. I realize
>you will never accept this and will demand proof and all sorts of crap
>like that, but I have better things to do with my time than to entertain
>the trogladytes up here who remain hopelessly mired in Descartes [sic]
>tired old mechanistic universe.

From beginning to end this is sheer unadulterated bullshit.  I’ll offer
you here and now $100.00 if you can do two things: first, give a clear
explanation of the "Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm," as you call it, and
second, cite a single sentence in one of my posts that commits me to such
a paradigm.  And how does the mere fact that I dislike meaningless
jargon, such as "Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm," commit me either to
reductionism of some kind or to a mechanistic view of the universe?

The irony is that I first entered this newsgroup because I am very much
interested in alternative medicine.  But unfortunately, people like you
and Paul, who throw around philosophical terms that you clearly do not
understand, end up doing the cause of alternative medicine more harm than
good.

And why, by the way, do you regard my *alternative* reply to Paul, which
admittedly indulges my own zany sense of humor, as a cop-out?  If, in
your own words, you have no regard for "proof and crap like that," then
why not regard my alternative reply as perfectly appropriate?  It is
hardly an attempt to produce "proof and crap like that"; so in that
respect, at least, it seems to be right in line with what you are looking
for.

-Tom

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Talbott) writes:

>In article <3h31ls$…@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>John Hammell <JHamm…@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>>Tom- Although humerous and unexpected, your reply to Paul was a real
cop
>>out. The real problem here is that you are a staunch adherent of the
now
>>obsolete Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm which has been superceded by the
>>holistic paradigm in which reductionism has been properly flushed down
>>the toilet in favor of a systems based view of the universe. I realize
>>you will never accept this and will demand proof and all sorts of crap
>>like that, but I have better things to do with my time than to
entertain
>>the trogladytes up here who remain hopelessly mired in Descartes [sic]
>>tired old mechanistic universe.

>From beginning to end this is sheer unadulterated bullshit.  I’ll offer
>you here and now $100.00 if you can do two things: first, give a clear
>explanation of the "Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm," as you call it, and
>second, cite a single sentence in one of my posts that commits me to
such
>a paradigm.  And how does the mere fact that I dislike meaningless
>jargon, such as "Newtonian/Cartesian paradigm," commit me either to
>reductionism of some kind or to a mechanistic view of the universe?

>The irony is that I first entered this newsgroup because I am very much
>interested in alternative medicine.  But unfortunately, people like you
>and Paul, who throw around philosophical terms that you clearly do not
>understand, end up doing the cause of alternative medicine more harm
than
>good.

>And why, by the way, do you regard my *alternative* reply to Paul,
which
>admittedly indulges my own zany sense of humor, as a cop-out?  If, in
>your own words, you have no regard for "proof and crap like that," then
>why not regard my alternative reply as perfectly appropriate?  It is
>hardly an attempt to produce "proof and crap like that"; so in that
>respect, at least, it seems to be right in line with what you are
looking
>for.

>-Tom

Go back and read the post on Descartes.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Schreiber) writes:

>In <3h0pcj$…@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> DragonSlayer writes:

>>In article <791888266…@resinfo.demon.co.uk>,
>Resi…@resinfo.demon.co.uk (Resinfo) writes:
>>|> In article <3gsl46$…@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
>>|>            Dank…@ix.netcom.com "Dan Schreiber" writes:
>>|>
>>|> >
>>|> > Why is everyone so angry in this newsgroup?  I understand
>difference of
>>|> > opinion but It is turning into one of those talk shows where
>nobody
>>|> > wins…why doesn’t everybody just offer their two cents worth and
>call
>>|> > it a day.

>>There *is* a good reason… Alot of information given on this
newsgroup
>>can be health endangering! Many of the ‘professionals’ posting here
are
>>clearly guilty of questionable practices, such as misrepresenting
>themselves,
>>the effectiveness of the modality proposed, accurately presenting the
>>*scientific* (that’s a dirty word around here) research into the
>modality, etc.
>>When someone behaves in a manner that could endanger the health and
>wellbeing
>>of the public at large, the person *deserves* to be confronted.
>>|>
>>|> Oh well, so much for the NEW YEAR RESOLUTION proposal:-(

>>That New Year’s resolution was *quite* bogus.
>>|>
>>|> After some 3 years of monitoring this BBS I think I’ll give it a
>rest..
>>|> there’s to my mind a *total* lack of tolerance and understanding
>here.

>>Nope, there’s a total lack of respect for science here. If people
would
>>represent themselves properly, produce literature if they’re promoting
>>a particular healing modality, or state that as far as the person
>knows,
>>there is no scientific evidence supportive of the modality, then alot
>of
>>the confrontations would stop.

>>|> ‘Politics’ should be kept to BBSs’ that deal with such matters,
>medicine
>>|> and healing has *nothing* to do with ‘politically’ self prefered
>views,
>>|> *especially* when they are _forced_ upon others.

>>You’re wrong about that. When someone is misrepresenting him/herself,
>>the effectives (or lack there of) of a modality, the safety (or lack
>thereof)
>>of a particular modality, the person deserves to be confronted. This
is
>>not based on any sort of pollitical agenda, but it’s based on pure
>pragmatism.
>>There’s alot of lurkers out there who are looking for help and who got
>>pissed off (for one reason or another) at mainstream medicine, or who
>are
>>interested in alternatives. Alot of these people really lack the
>scientific
>>or medical background of some of the ‘regulars’. They need to hear a
>diverse
>>point of view, and to sometimes witness true believers totally
>discredited.
>>You see, it’s caveat emptor out there, and most people don’t have the
>>wherewithall to avoid the con men, the quacks and the true believing
>cranks.
>>For in amongst this morass of dung, there *may* be something of value.

>>DragonSlayer  
>>|>
>>|> Till another time when I hope to find more harmony here, look
>>|> after yourselves.
>>|>
>>|> mr t.a.t.
>>|> —
>>|> Resinfo in the U.K.

>Dear Dragon Slayer, I’m really not trying to sound nasty but what
>exactly do you do as a profession?  I’m just curious as you seem to
>really hate all natural methods of healing.  I understand you want
>documention to back all the claims…that’s acceptable, but why have
you
>taken all of this on *your* shoulders to make sure it’s all proven?  
The
>power of the human mind is an extraordinary, powerful, unexplainable
>tool in healing, again, if it works for them, let them try.  Please
>explain to me again why you are so angry, was it something from your
>childhood?

Dan Schreiber- You wondered why DragonSlayer was so mean and
nasty and speculated that maybe he was possibly dorked up
the wazoo by his dad (or something) in childhood, and I have some
thoughts on the matter that may be of interest.

DragonSlayer lacks the balls to put his real name on here, so I’m gonna
use Finger to find out his real name, and that will shead some light on
the matter. Obviously, he is a member of the NCAHF, and all those guys
are zealots who think they have been annointed directly by God with the
truth. Actually, they are a pack of pathetic individuals who are
watching their flawed paradigm of Cartesian logic be replaced by the new
holistic paradigm, and it bothers them to no end. They feel threatened:
economically and philosophically. You might enjoy reading "Medical
Mavericks" vols 1&2 by Hugh Riordan,MD. of the Center for the
Improvedment of Human Functioning in Wichita, KS 316-682-3100. Each
chapter in these 2 books is a short vignette about how medical
innovators have been harrassed by morons like DragonSlayer throughout
history. They show that demagogues like DragonSlayer have been around
for centuries. There is nothing new under the sun.

John Hammell
Political Coordinator
The Life Extension Foundation
800-333-2553, 305-929-0507 FAX
JHamm…@ix.netcom.com  or on the web:
http://aeiveos.wa.com/lef/index.html
75240….@compuserve.com